Ending my brand allegiance due to Synapse 3

Discussion in 'Razer Synapse 3 Beta' started by BattleGeisha, Mar 23, 2019.

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  1. BattleGeisha

    BattleGeisha New Member

    I've used Razer gaming devices for almost a decade. I've struggled with Synapse 2 until they've stabilized it, but chugged along on my BlackWidow Elite and DeathAdder for years until the mouse fell ill to the infamous double-clicking issue after 4 years. I replaced it with a Mamba Elite, and thus being my Saturday nightmare. I'm an IT Engineer, and I can't freagin believe Razer shipped Beta software with my mouse which inherently conflicts with its older version.

    There is currently no stable version of Synapse. Synapse 2 is legacy while Synapse 3 is beta. What. The hell.

    My old device will only be recognized on Synapse 2. My new device isn't being recognized by anything because I CAN'T GET SYNAPSE 3 TO RUN AT ALL. I've tried clean install with no Synapse 2, I've tried it with. I've tried repairs of Windows 10. I've dug through event logs. I've checked the health of .Net framework. I've done everything I could possibly do as an IT engineer to facilitate this piece of crap to work on my gaming device.

    So, after 10 years, goodbye Razer. I am returning your arguably stable hardware with your absolutely horrific software, which at all isn't helped by the fact that you tried to get me to download crypto mining software on my computer.

    Why didn't you put the time and effort in to getting your flagship driver software working properly, first?

    Diana
     
    Grimmwor, Drashnar, Heavyoak and 6 others like this.
  2. Dissenter7

    Dissenter7 New Member

    I can't say I'm too far behind you Diana. I've owned Razer products since the original Boomslang and, while I have plenty of other peripherals, they have been my main setup for most of the last 15 years. I'm fed up. I had old software on brand new products (Lancehead TE and Blackwidow Chroma TE) so that I could do basics like sync the lighting between devices. When I bought the Nari headset (which by the way is one of the most comfortable gaming headsets I have ever worn) I had to install Synapse 3 and my life was turned upside down. I really had been immune to the trials of Synapse 3 folks until then, but now I get it. I've read countless horror stories. I've posted a few times on the forum here only to be completely ignored. I have chatted with their support team and was promised that they were currently working on Synapse 3 support for my keyboard, but then this latest release is dropped with a note specifically stating that they are not working on any hardware support. The fact is, they are lying. They are hoping that everyone with older hardware just keeps spending more money to get the latest hardware. Funny thing is, that doesn't fix the software.

    This is the most complete indictment of Razer's attitude that I can see. It is a quote from their SOFTWARE SUPPORT saying they cannot fix a problem because of the SOFTWARE. The irony makes me want to punch a hole in the wall....
     
  3. Lusabit

    Lusabit Active Member

    @mltan: You should read this !
     
    BattleGeisha likes this.
  4. Razer.FatKidWanderer

    Razer.FatKidWanderer Just wandering around...

    Hi there, @BattleGeisha and #Dissenter7! Sorry to hear about your experience with our products. Allow me to help you out with this. I sent you a PM regarding this matter. Please check your Inbox.
     
  5. Cardnyl223

    Cardnyl223 New Member

    I'm glad this thread was unlocked; earlier it was locked? I am in the same boat as the OP. I bought my Tartarus v2 in 2018 to replace my aging Belkin Nostromo N52te. My N52te was noisy but still worked; I mainly wanted something with the same rough shape and more buttons.

    The inability to insert delays between keystrokes in a macro is a huge let down. While controlling delays on key press and release might seem like enough it isn't. There is at least 1 game I can think of that treats a long key release as though the key is being held down for the entire duration of the delay. Additionally, being unable to insert delays means you cannot control how fast the software cycles through a continuous loop. Thinking about making your keypad press a button every 6 seconds and wait for 4 seconds before doing it again? Too bad.

    I've had numerous instances where profiles linked to specific games do not load when the game they are linked to becomes launched or has window focus. So for example, I have a Path of Exile profile linked to Path of Exile and an Apex profile linked to its executable. I know I have linked the profiles to the correct executable because of Task Manager. I've had instances where my PoE profile remains active even though the game has not been launched at all since the computer was rebooted even when Apex has launched, is completely loaded, and is the foreground application.

    I'd just like to point out that the 13+ year old Logitech G15 keyboard I am typing this post on and both of my Belkin game pads before my Tartarus had absolutely no issues with profile switching, loop control, and inserted delays when it came to software.

    The fit and finish on this particular piece of hardware is excellent. The out of box experience with the hardware is absolutely ruined by the software missing what most would consider "basic functionality". Logitech and Corsair's equivalent software all allow for this stuff so the fact that its omitted is glaring. It's also forcing users to combo your hardware with more capable software (e.g. AutoHotkey). Couple these issues with the fact that it seems like an inordinate amount of effort is being spent on "bling" (read: lighting) makes us question our purchases both past and future.
     
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  6. BattleGeisha

    BattleGeisha New Member

    I made a smol complaint that the thread was locked.

    I wanted to thank everyone who responded for not making me feel like I'm alone in this. There are lots of Reddit posts and things like that, and I think Razer is aware there are significant issues with its software, but the one thing I tried to impress upon them is that I bill people to test their hardware/software and get things working.

    I also wanted to mention to anyone else who had issues on their Windows 10 Pro device that a possible fix to get Synapse 3 working may be to make sure you have the latest MS Visual C++ redistrib. installed. I did eventually figure this out, but I'm returning my mouse anyway. I don't see the point because it still has problematic startups.

    Until Razer truly rewards me for my decade's worth of brand enthusiasm by allowing all my devices to speak to each other on one application, proper basic software expectations, or smooth onboarding/instructions for users already on Synapse 2 or who already owns other devices, there is literally no reason why I should stick with Razer, not to mention the inherent face-slap of releasing Beta software with hardware.

    Gamers, you should never, ever, pay for an incomplete product. This means pre-ordering. This means games in early access. This means beta. Yes, there are exceptions, but we vote with our wallet.


    That said, I want to at least commend @Razer.FatKidWanderer for making the PR attempt.
     
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  7. Dissenter7

    Dissenter7 New Member

    Agreed, the PR attempt was reasonable, but all it resulted in was a PM that said
    No big surprise there. I'm with you @BattleGeisha I've been developing and managing software development teams for 20 years and I would be mortified if anything I ever worked on was in such a mess. Not only can't they get what they have in place right, but they can't help adding more and more features with complete disregard for basics like supporting the rest of their products and killing off all these maddening bugs! If I managed anything that was even close to the state of Synapse 3, features would have been shut down a long time ago! The real slap in the face is that they keep adding more third party device support. That's just insulting...
     
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  8. Dissenter7

    Dissenter7 New Member

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  9. RazerThe_Fiend

    RazerThe_Fiend Well-Known Member Staff Member

    I manage Synapse 3.

    You can look through my post history for the reasons. Older devices have (relatively) primitive hardware and firmware, which weren't designed to work with Synapse 3's architecture. Can you imagine the shit storm if we migrate a device to Synapse 3 knowing that it performs worse compared to Synapse 2 and has known issues? Everyone would accuse us of planned obscurity and what not. The devices were released and advertised with Synapse 2, and will continue to be supported on Synapse 2. Synapse 3 support is NOT a given for any of these devices what so ever.

    I'm not at the liberty to discuss issues with specific devices and their specific reasons.

    If you encounter any bugs with it, please report them to support through proper channels (social media is not that). We are 100% committed to fixing all software issues and we've been working tirelessly for the last 8 months, de-prioritizing all our feature-pipeline to focus on quality alone. However, a large majority of these "bugs" are issues on the customer side, not Synapse issues (latest example here).

    As for "they keep adding more third party devices", there's an open API we provide for that. The third parties in question add support for those products themselves, not us.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
  10. BattleGeisha

    BattleGeisha New Member

    So, I sympathize with that. If something was properly communicated to me that was like "listen, your keyboard that is 3 years old is just not supported by Synapse 3" and I had to upgrade, I would have grumbled but I would have thrown money at the problem and just got myself a new keyboard. Whatever, fine, BlackWidow not supported. You know what would have been nice? If installing Synapse 3 it detected I had Synapse 2 and said something about that.

    But after my abysmal experience with Synapse 3 I wasn't going to do buy a new keyboard.

    And you know, you have a difficult user base. A big percentage of your users are highly technical. Many of us work in the tech industry and really don't want to spend our life working through level 1 tech support. And for the most part, we know what is a reasonable amount of something not working and the general constitution of our battlestations. An application refusing to start at all and throwing kernelbase errors and not playing nice with older versions of itself are for the the most part, not acceptable. What you are saying is a likely story, except many of us remember when Synapse 2 also had terrible problems that took years to fix. I think saying the majority of your Synapse 3 issues are problems with the user computer is not true.

    My point is this. In a few years I would love if one of my friends is like "Diana, Synapse 4 is awesome, I went back to Razer." But right now it seems as if ya'll have blinders on and think this is all normal.

    And it just really, really isn't.

    Anyway, I've said my piece and at the very least I'm happy I got to do that, because I'm not up in here trying to be a troll, I seriously loved your hardware for a very long time and wanted to keep using it, and a lot of this is hoping someone will hear the users and go "okay, maybe for Synapse 4 we don't release it in beta, and we don't bundle it with a crytpo miner option, and we make it so it detects Synapse 3 and do some kinda onboarding about that."

    God speed.

    Diana
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
  11. RazerThe_Fiend

    RazerThe_Fiend Well-Known Member Staff Member

    This is something we have considered, but it really takes the back-seat to so many other issues in the pipeline. Especially when we already have the device compatibility list right on the Synapse 3 dashboard (has been there since the very first public release).

    I'm just going by the data we get based on support tickets. e.g. we get users who refuse to update their Windows, use unpowered USB hubs causing device disconnections, selectively disable or uninstall Windows dependencies etc etc, and then blame the software for it.

    Then there are extreme corner-case setups, which require special handling and engineers require very detailed technical information and logs (which users are sometimes unwilling to provide) to do anything about them. Progress can be very slow in such scenarios.

    Of course we make mistakes too, but we always acknowledge and do our best to promptly fix them. This recent issue was acknowledged and fixed within 16 hours, for example. Some issues take longer to fix are are rolled into bigger patches.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
  12. Lusabit

    Lusabit Active Member

    At least, this is not a god given situation, it's a bad design decision, to set up Synapse3 in a way, that it's not backward compatible. Yes, I know, to build a completely new software and keep it backward compatible is much more complicated and expensive, than simply disregarding older devices. But RAZER (!) decided it like this, and approves customers reaction, and loosing reputation.

    Never mind, I think this would be not all that bad, if Synapse3 were in a fine condition,when it came out, especially when it is needed for your sold (expensive) hardware.
    But even more than one year later, it still has serious problems, bugs, is still in beta, or in my opinion more alpha.
    There is no other brand, that has so many problems for such a long time. And they all have the same kind of users, with the same kind of computer configurations, but their software runs mostly smooth from old, not updated, windows to actual Win10/Mac versions. So, your statement "most problems come from users configuration" is a bad excuse, for the fact, that your drivers are programmed in an unstable way.

    The problems is not out there, but it's in your Company ! If your software team doesn't have the expertise how to develop stable drivers, than get help from outside, hire experienced developers (if you are willing to pay them), or do whatever to fix the situation ! Otherwise you will loose more and more customers and in particular, destroy the brand !
     
  13. RazerThe_Fiend

    RazerThe_Fiend Well-Known Member Staff Member

    So, you're suggesting it's a good idea to design a new platform backwards, limited to what the old hardware could do? That defeats the whole purpose of building a new platform.

    We started out with an outline of everything we wanted to do with Synapse 3, it was going to be clean cut with ZERO devices migrated over from Synapse 2. I'm not sure if you know this, but Synapse 3 was released with just 2 devices (Lancehead and Lancehead Tournament Edition). Once again, these legacy devices were built, marketed and sold with Synapse 2 and there was no promise of Synapse 3 software for those devices when users bought them.

    As a matter of fact, I personally got the bosses to reconsider and agree to putting our Synapse 3 feature roadmap on hold and migrate a whole bunch of older devices for over half a year (starting late-2017) because that would be the right thing to do for existing customers. These older devices then ended up being a source of problems of many of our software troubles in 2018 as it is.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
  14. Heavyoak

    Heavyoak Member

    I'm with the op on one thing, the "beta" software isn't even that, it's an alpha and should have never been made a requirement for new hardware, let along a public release.

    when its time for me to start replacing some of my older stuff, like my Nostromo, im probably switching to Corsair, after using razer for over 10 years it will take getting used to but they don't seem to be pulling this crap with there software.

    I will never use an alpha ver. of a "beta" build software that controls that functions of my physical inputs.
     
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  15. RazerThe_Fiend

    RazerThe_Fiend Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Do you mind sharing any of the bugs you have encountered? Have you reported them through any official support channels? The engineers can't fix bugs without knowing what bugs exist.
     
  16. Lusabit

    Lusabit Active Member

    No, I never said, that the new platform should be limited by old hardware, but should support at least this hardware according to it's abilities. That you convinced your bosses, to try that, was absolutly correct.
    I can also understand, that the effort to support every very old product will be to expensive, so that some legacy devices drop out. But if one decides this, it should be clear, that one has to support two versions of the software, as you do now, with all problems it brings.
    Any decision can be ok, ether 2 seperat smaller versions, or one bigger, in any case, the outcome has to be a good working solution.
    I can imagine, that perhaps the problems you have with your design lies in the past, because of having an inconsistent hardware-firmware ? I can't evaluate that. In this case, it's certainly difficult, to program the drivers according to a fragmented firmware base, and causes problems. But thats also in the end, no excuse for selling hardware with a buggy software, or two versions, that do not work together smootly. In this condition, Syn3 should have never been released, and new devices should have been further supported by Syn2, untill the new version is ready to replace or complement it in a widely bug free form.
    As your company produces both, the drivers and the firmware of the hardware, there is no compelling necessity, to bring them together. Its (only) a matter of time and effort to do it right. No matter where the problem(s) lie(s) in the end, it hasn't been done right. And the result, we see here in the comments.
    I hope your company draws the right conclusions, to overcome this problems quickly. But I don't believe, that it will be solved in the near future. So many mistakes and wrong decisions can not be corrected i a short time.
     
  17. Lusabit

    Lusabit Active Member

    Unfortunately Corsair and others don't offer a keypad, so you have to live without it, only use keyboard and mouse, or may be get one without a thumb stick from competitors. That was the main cause for me, to buy Razer keypad and mouse. Because of the driver mess, I sold my Naga and actually only use the orbweaver. I intended to buy a Razer keyboard too, to be in one consistent ecosystem, but I quickly dissmised this idea.
     
  18. RazerThe_Fiend

    RazerThe_Fiend Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Once again, you keep saying "buggy", what are these bugs that you encounter? We've been prioritizing and fixing every single bug that is reported to us, and de-prioritizing the feature-pipeline. And I can confidently say there are no major outstanding bugs in Synapse 3 at this time. Sure, specific corner-case systems will have their quirks, but that's what customer support is for... they'll help you either work around your issues or report them back to our engineers to have them fixed.

    About a year ago, I personally remember handling the bugs you reported about the Tartarus V2 in the past, but I'm not getting anything actionable out of this conversation. As I said in the comment above, we WANT you to have the best experience and solve all your issues, but the engineers can't fix any bugs without knowing what bugs exist. Please report them through official channels.
     
  19. Lusabit

    Lusabit Active Member

    I actually don't have problems with Syn3, because I deinstalled it a long time ago and sold my Naga. I only use Syn2 with my orbweaver, and I'm only dissatisfied with QoL things. I don't think, you want to hear of them for Syn2.
    But I'm following this forum intensively, because still I won't give up all hope, that situation is getting better and I can switch to a fine running Razer ecosystem with keyboard,mouse and keypad, which was my imagination, when I bought my first Razer devices.
    And of course, I want to express my dissapointment about Razer performance, because products are expensive. From premium products I expect premium performance.
    I think, that problems will only be seriously accessed, when you get unpleasent feedback from disappointed customers, even when it hurts.
    I don't want to troll oder hate your company, exact the opposite.
    Because if I come to the conclusion, that Syn3 runs widely without problems, preferred without Syn2 for my orbweaver, or at least integrated without problems, and I get the feeling, that I can trust Razer products for the future, I will probably come back to your company.

    (P.S. as long as -for use with Syn3- Tartarus thumbstick probably fails within month', and there is no official statement, that production has changed for this component, it's no option, sadly)

    I still hope, for you, and for me, that Razer quality comes back !
     
  20. MagusRazer

    MagusRazer New Member

    I feel like Razer is taking us prisoners and forcing us to use and report bugs in this beta software. I updated to Naga Trinity from the 2014 version with no idea I would not be able to use Synapse 2, which was kind of at least usable. This is the reason I as a paying customer am really pissed with Razer.

    If you would fix bugs within days of our reports, I would not mind using 3.0, but it takes years for you to fix them. And meanwhile, you are just updating some chroma settings while I can't even setup a different lighting to every profile. What a joke.
     
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