Ephemeral Social Media: Social Networks Up Next?

Discussion in 'Off Topic Chat' started by Haltus Kain, Feb 9, 2015.

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  1. I would use an ephemeral social networking website.

  2. I would stick with traditional social networking websites.

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  1. xBLASPHEMICx

    xBLASPHEMICx Member

    [​IMG] Here's a screen cap of Ello's main feed. Last post on whole site was 6 hours ago.
     
  2. xBLASPHEMICx

    xBLASPHEMICx Member

    And here is Path's messenger app. It even has a delete feature, like you want. [​IMG]
     
  3. HaltusKain

    HaltusKain Well-Known Member

    @xBLASPHEMICx

    What we want has never been attempted.

    Apples to oranges.

    You are off topic. The things you keep bringing up do have similarities with the actual topic, but they are off topic. You seen to have good intentions, but you are detailing this thread.

    So please stop. You are certainly welcome to join this thread's discussion; but you are not welcome to try to change the subject any further.

    In an act of irony, I'll even go as far as to ask you to embrace ephemeral content, and delete your posts here: this will protect you from the scrutiny of other Insiders who haven't been following the discussion yet, who would otherwise take on a negative opinion about you through the impression that you are simply trolling; and it will prevent any future participants in this conversation from thinking it's something it's not and unwittingly continuing to push the off topic snowball.
     
  4. xBLASPHEMICx

    xBLASPHEMICx Member

    Because what I've said is not what you wanted to hear does not make any of it off topic. I remained on topic. Gave many examples of the failings of that form of media in a larger scale than Snapchat in a way to attempt to show you that yes, it has been tried. You now have the audacity to assume I'd ever be ashamed of my posts and to censor myself. That is incredibly wrong. You are being "Big Brother". I'm no troll. Yet you further your assumptions by trying to stereotype me. I've done nothing but be civil here. Yet you now have some kind of passive aggressive way of saying because my thoughts are not exactly like yours that I should remove them. I truly hope you do find some network to go to. It is disheartening that you refuse to see anything beyond the exact thing you want. Very closed minded.
     
  5. HaltusKain

    HaltusKain Well-Known Member

    You are correct that it is not what I want to hear: but not wanting to be told an apple is an orange doesn't validate the claim that an apple is an orange. I apologize if that comes off as close minded - if it's any consolation, I acknowledge that they are both fruit.

    You continue to bring up concepts like shame and censorship, which demonstrate clearly that despite our best efforts to inform you of what we're trying to discuss, you still do not understand what that is.

    Further apologies if this strikes you as passive aggressive - that is not the goal. I'm trying to inform you as politely as possible that you are not contributing to this discussion, and that your perseverance to bring up irrelevant topics is starting to give the impression of malicious intent: intentional trolling.

    For now I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume instead that it is accidental; that we are simply not understanding each other. But either way, I insist that you stop.
     
  6. xBLASPHEMICx

    xBLASPHEMICx Member

    What I find frustrating is you saying I haven't contributed to this conversation. I've provided actual names of existing platforms. I've given options that are viable. How is any of that not contributing? Again with the assuming and accusing. Have you seen the view count of this thread? Did it ever cross your mind that no one else is joining in because (like I've said a few times) this kind of network simply doesn't interest enough people at all? How much more on topic can I be than to flat out state that the network you wrote about in original post has no mass appeal? Instead of being rude about it and shooting down such a ridiculous idea, I instead opted to try (and fail apparently) to offer you different options that could let you and your small circle of friends enjoy an online experience where you would have much more control over your content. Not the hand holding auto-deleting dystopian network of your dreams, but as close to it as possible. I only wanted to help. This topic would have been long buried and gone if not for our debate here.
     
  7. HaltusKain

    HaltusKain Well-Known Member

    Correction - you're contributing, but in a counterproductive way.

    I don't know how to express it more simply than apples and oranges. You keep providing names of unrelated platforms; addressing concerns that none of us have; giving posting advice that none of us disagree with.

    We're not interested in your apples. I'm sorry that offends you. Your insight on apples is solid - in a discussion pertaining to apples, you would be a valued poster. Here though, we are discussing oranges, and regardless of how knowledgeable you are about apples, contributions pertaining to apples are off topic.

    Perhaps the concept of an orange of utterly foreign to you, which may explain why you're having such a hard time understanding that an orange isn't an apple. And granted: it's fruit, it grows on a tree, it's sweet, it's juicy, it has a skin on the outside and seeds on the inside, it's colorful, it's even the same size. It's easy to see how someone who's never contemplated an orange could confuse it for an apple; the similarities are undeniable; and it would appear that to some, the differences are imperceptible. But at the end of the day, and orange is not an apple.

    Even though you can't see the difference, just take my word for it: they're different. The apples you're talking about are not the oranges I'm talking about.

    You've been informed of this several times, and asked to stop several times.

    If you have some kind of epiphany and are suddenly able to comprehend what it is this topic is about, then by all means, post away. I've tried language to accomplish that feat, and it was unsuccessful; and I'm at a loss of what else I can do to make it more clear to you... it's not like something I can draw a picture of; and I lack the time and skill to produce it myself to invite you to.

    So until you are able to comprehend what's being discussed, stop trying to discuss it. I know you *think* you understand what the discussion is about, but you are wrong.

    Apples to oranges.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2015
  8. xBLASPHEMICx

    xBLASPHEMICx Member

    Please stop assuming that I don't know the difference between two fruit. That's a horrible analogy for one thing but more importantly I've clearly stated that I do indeed know the difference. The problem isn't me. It's you not liking the truth about your precious idea not being popular or feasible. Because you refuse to accept that truth you wish instead to try and close off an open forum to me. You wish for me to remove my informative and well thought out responses because they don't instill hope for an already failed platform. There's no niche that would make your idea appealing. None. Zero. Why would anyone leave a built up body of content and full friend list of active users to start fresh somewhere with the knowledge that the content they'd have to share and use to garner a new audience would disappear in a month? How does that make any sense? It. Doesn't. Your mind is so closed its reaching the point of tragedy and I'm very sorry that you cannot see the helpful advice I provided as existing options to your idea that will never see the light of day. This isn't your forum and I'd really appreciate it if you stop trying to impose your will upon me. That's classless. Try accepting that not everyone shares your views. I personally think your idea is lacking and I showed proof why. That's about oranges. Only oranges. Nothing to do with apples. I only brought apples up because I felt it would be rude to simply slap you with the harsh reality of your idea's shortcomings. All that aside, do go and look at networks like Ello and Path. You may find exactly what you want in them. Try them out.
     
  9. kajira

    kajira Mother of Gaming

    @xBLASPHEMICx I said I wasn't going to bother posting anymore, but I will add this much: I actually agree completely with @Haltus Kain and keep in mind that by continuing to insist that you understand what we were discussing and constantly posting things that were contrary to what we were getting at already chased off one contributor, myself, so who's to say that it hasn't also prevented others from joining in?

    Trust me, I've seen it all, done most of it and I know my way around the internet - I'm in my mid-40's, I'm not some spring chicken who wasn't around when all these things you've mentioned got started and I've seen a lot of social media and various methods of online contact come and go. However, knowing what you're talking about and having experienced most of it, just further shows me that it's NOT the goal of what we were discussing / looking for. There is a big difference between strict privacy settings like you keep mentioning and having the ability to "house cleaning" on your content in a simple and easy fashion. It's not about limiting it to small groups or not socializing in the traditional sense, it's about having control over what you have "out there."

    Basically what you're attempting to push is that if you want to have the ability to remove your content easily, then you need to go with a small group of friends, you need strict privacy enforcement and you need to do it in the ways that have already been tried before. That's not at all what we were discussing or attempting to brainstorm.

    The really short of it: we were pondering the thought of basically SnapChat, only in web form and where the information stays around a little longer, but not forever. (that's a very bare bones and not completely accurate demonstration, but close enough) That concept is nothing like the platforms you've listed.

    Furthermore, who said people had to leave their other built up social networks? That's like insinuating that because you have a Twitter account you need to leave FaceBook. That's ridiculous. People always have the choice to be members of more than one network.

    So, anyway, I've said my little bit there and then some. But definitely done with the topic at this point. Enjoy your weekend!
     
  10. xBLASPHEMICx

    xBLASPHEMICx Member

    @kajira I didn't mean to scare you or anyone off. The curating of one's content (bulk deleting posts) is already doable. It isn't a part of the major social networks because of their current business models. They collect data, not encourage the removal of data. You say you are experienced in the web then surely you understand that. That understanding brings us to the short answer to the original post which is no, it won't happen. The other things I mentioned were me attempting to help offer up options where something like bulk editing of content could become an adapted function. They also offered security as that seemed to be the root of this, even more so than the editing itself. No, you can't remove chunks of data from the options I mentioned but you also needn't worry about employers or anyone really stumbling upon them in the future. Which is a good thing and relevant to this post. Or at least I thought so.

    No one said people have to leave other networks, I asked why would they? All existing platforms cover every single aspect a user could want. Very efficiently. I only asked what would be this new network's big draw.

    I had no idea coming into this that it was an "agree with me or gtfo" kind of thread. Which it has turned out to be. If I happen to come across a network that has the exact function asked about here then I'll be happy to link it. I check out and test new social networks all the time. I'll be sure to keep an eye out. You have a great weekend as well.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2015
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  11. HaltusKain

    HaltusKain Well-Known Member

    You don't like the apples to oranges analogy? There are others to illustrate the point:

    Perhaps let's compare to a discussion about zebras, in which you hypothetically be saying they absolutely don't have stripes, because you're an expert on palominos and have never seen one with that feature?

    Or that it would be impossible for a race car to reach 200mph because your chevy geoprizm maxes out at 90?

    Or that a platypus isn't a mammal because the only billed animals you're familiar with are birds?


    THE POINT IS, while you are very insightful about the things you've brought up, they are not the things we are here to discuss. They are similar to the topic at hand, but they are not the topic at hand.

    This is far from an "agree with me or gtfo" situation; but you don't seem to understand what it is you're disagreeing with. And I know: you have CLEARLY demonstrated that you *think* you know what we're talking about... but if I said "2+2 doesn't equal 4, because when you mix red and blue it makes purple!" I would look like an idiot regardless of how sure I was that red+blue=purple was applicable insight to whether or not 2+2=4.

    You are free to agree or disagree as you please, but if you do so for nonsensical reasons, you will be called on it - as you have been multiple times. No one's upset about you disagreeing - hell, there's poll setup so you can do that without saying a single word - but your reasons for disagreeing have made it clear that you're disagreeing with something other than the topic of this thread, and that makes you look ridiculous.

    You're digging yourself a hole. I sincerely advise you to either carefully reread the entire thread until you figure out where you went wrong and what the topic actually is; or that you stop.
     
  12. xBLASPHEMICx

    xBLASPHEMICx Member

    You do realize I've been speaking about the bulk edit feature for quite a while and you're the only one still harping on about my mentioning of other options, don't you? There are even Chrome extensions and UserScripts that allow you to remove en masse content from Facebook and Instagram, they have been out for a VERY long time. Those extensions aren't very popular because the majority of users find them pointless. Not saying WHY, because you'll go on about oranges again. But that's a fact. Look them up if you want.

    Are there others who share your particular interest? Of course there are. Are they here on a socially interactive driven forum? I highly doubt it. (Poll you mentioned is a great example of how very few are here)

    I'm not digging myself a hole, so could you please stop trying to make me feel like an outcast? Thinly veiled aggression is still aggression. It's kind of sad.
     
  13. HaltusKain

    HaltusKain Well-Known Member

    One thing I haven't addressed that I probably should have, is that you keep bringing up the fact that there isn't much demand currently for such a service. We're on the same page there - you don't need to look at this thread to gauge that; the fact that the service doesn't exist is enough of an indication that there isn't much demand for it; if there was, someone would have made it happen. So, my silence on that matter is due to me being in agreement with you - there is currently very little demand for an ephemeral social network.

    Our current privacy tools are have become less effective, and are constantly under attack - details are in the OP. Demand for an ephemeral social network will depend entirely on which direction our online privacy rights go. If they keep spiraling toward absence, then people are going to start looking for options that provide privacy without providing privacy rights - this is when ephemeral social networks will take the spotlight. If the attacks on our rights finally stop, and our governments show that they actually have our backs in that regard, then folks will be happy with what they have.


    As for bulk edit services, RSS feeds, and the other things you've been mentioning, those are still apples. Good options for today's internet, but again that's not the focus of the discussion.


    My condolence for any perceived aggression. My intent was simply bluntness. It's difficult to express in a polite manner to someone that they don't know what they're talking about, and should cease before making more of a fool of themself - or worse, misleading others with bad information. Initial attempts at conveying this to you were unsuccessful, so I gradually phased into less polite and more brutally honest.

    I'm not senselessly insulting you - but rather trying to repair the thread from your seemingly unintentional derailments. I don't question, however, that your intentions are benevolent.
     
  14. xBLASPHEMICx

    xBLASPHEMICx Member

    Have a look at this:

    https://chrome.google.com/webstore/...timeli/olpgdigakalagbnckjmnhajofccbbeaf?hl=en

    It's one of a few Chrome extensions that allow you to go through your Facebook timeline and wipe out huge chunks. Adding that to your browser turns Facebook into what you want, doesn't it? I only ask because that's been available for a long time. Many like it as well. You keep saying it doesn't currently exist. That is incorrect. The ability do so DOES exist. What it is not, is implemented. Huge difference there. The lack of interest is to blame alongside its counterproductive nature to the current network's methods of operation. You don't need to wait for them to change, you can change it right now.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2015
  15. xBLASPHEMICx

    xBLASPHEMICx Member

    [​IMG] If that extension seems limited, here's a more robust option. It's called Xpire. You can self destruct posts on various sites.
     
  16. HaltusKain

    HaltusKain Well-Known Member

    The facebook extension doesn't work for me - page just freezes when I tell it to do its thing. Looking at the reviews, it does look like it works for some folks though, so that's progress I guess.

    Xpire is a mobile function, which is kind of a different ball game - it's quicker to just go through and delete things manually on a pc.

    In any case, these are steps in a good direction, but not really what we're shooting for. The biggest problem I see with tools like that are permissions - had I not recently manually deleted everything from my facebook page, I wouldn't have wanted to install an extension that gives a third party access to the things I'm trying to delete.

    Tackling a privacy concern by giving a stranger access to everything is just sketchy.

    It also doesn't solve one of facebook's larger problems, which is server-side retention. I can delete an entire conversation from my profile, but that conversation is still there.

    So, facebook is the only thing that can make facebook what I'm looking for, but that's not a very realistic expectation - that simply isn't facebook's market.

    What we need is a network that was built from the ground up with privacy protection as a core value.

    I don't see this happening on the terms of an existing network. Not initially anyway - if an ephemeral social network is created and turns out to be a huge success, Facebook and like networks might then follow suite if they lose enough customers to merit the transition; but they won't be the ones to pioneer that territory.
     
  17. xBLASPHEMICx

    xBLASPHEMICx Member

    A privacy oriented network already exists. It's called Ello. It's built upon the principal of never giving user data to any ad marketer or third party, period. Check it out.

    Xpire has setting to auto delete posts from FB, Tumblr, and Twitter. Server-side retention? I've never seen evidence of FB keeping a cache of deleted content. Could you show where that is documented? I'd imagine there must a massive data compile somewhere.
     
  18. xBLASPHEMICx

    xBLASPHEMICx Member

    I should clarify, I know they keep profiles stored. Like if you deactivate it, you can always reactivate it later. I wasn't aware about posts being cached. Seems odd.
     
  19. HaltusKain

    HaltusKain Well-Known Member

    I checked it out the first time you mentioned it. Something like that is not an effective tool against the types of attacks our rights have been subject to lately.

    A networks willingness to distribute your data doesn't mean squat if we're forced to do things like give up our login info in a job interview. Same applies to setting your account to the highest of security measures; carefully controlling which friends can see what, etc.

    Not all old tricks work against new problems.

    We need a network that not only will not, but cannot distribute its user's content (beyond the reasonable timeframe - i.e., if you post that you're about to go on a school shooting, even on an ephemeral network, that can and should get you in legal trouble).

    Make a second account. From account A, send account B a private message, then delete it. Now log in with account B - note that the message is still there. If someone tags you in a comment, it will be posted to your wall: from your wall, you can "delete" the comment, and it will be removed from your wall only, not from facebook.

    That's what I meant by server-side retention - I don't know if they keep a copy of things once ALL of the users involved opt to delete it, but the point is, there's some content on facebook you can't actually delete - you can cover it up, as viewed by your own account, but anything more than that requires the cooperation of others - and in consideration of the state of our rights, and the direction they're headed, that's kind of scary.
     
  20. xBLASPHEMICx

    xBLASPHEMICx Member

    Protection is double edged sword though. The TOR network was never intended to be a hideout for pedophiles, but that's what it's become. Huge advantage to a network like Ello is that it would never be on a list of required logins an employer would ask for. You would be in no way obligated to surrender that information. Same with private channels or boards. They can only ask for the obvious. Thinking about this now, I doubt even more that such a network would ever see the light of day because of all the creepers who would use it. You could plan out flash protests or smash and grabs. All evidence gone in 30 minutes. If a stipulation for including this feature got to the desks of Facebook execs, I'm fairly certain that data retention would be number one on the list of things not to do. A bright side is that using tools like Xpire allow you to have the control you seek over wall posts. Norhing online is actually ours save from our user names. We opt in to services. To games. To applications. Even to our operating systems. The lack of regulation I mentioned in my first reply makes that simple fact (we opt in) scary. There's no set limit really to what we are opting in to. No stopping point for our data. Even an ephemeral network would require us to opt in. Offering up our info then wanting to change that info later isn't a safe practice. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but it's not safe. If you for example posted a photo of your kid and I commented on it "I'm a cook that kid and serve you some bbq for Valentine's Day" you would immediately respond with anger and rage. If I then edited my post or deleted it, you would for a time look as if you're attacking another commenter on your photo. In many instances, trolling like that garners responses that the troll uses for a giggle. But it can also be used for much more malicious things like defamation. It would take a lot of planning to execute a service that both protects the information we opt to share and also guarantees the user not only privacy but also an end point. Meaning that if we remove something, the network itself has also opted in to us allowing us enough control over its root to fully purge our own content. Leaving nothing behind. Personally, I don't see that ever being the case with giant networks but smaller ones like Ello and tools like Xpire are not only steps in that direction but proof of concept that it could exist without being run into the ground by scum. Maybe someday.
     
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