Welcome to The Linux Corner!

Discussion in 'The Linux Corner' started by Deleted member 368765, Feb 27, 2017.

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  1. Lucas.de_no_id

    Lucas.de_no_id New Member

    Actually, Optimus limitations on Linux are not due to NVIDIA but to the X Server which was never built to support GPU switching. Only weyland (or Mir on ubuntu) can fix this. I know this subject very well and he is very painfull.
     
    domacs likes this.
  2. bizzy_no_id

    bizzy_no_id New Member

    Here are a few key points that I think Razer should focus on:
    • Ubuntu
    Choose a well established and widely recognized Linux distribution. Not everyone that uses a Linux distribution is technical. The company behind Ubuntu knows and understands this.

    Whether you are an experienced user or a novice, Ubuntu is the best choice for balance between experienced and inexperienced users.​
    • Integration
    This is very important and a key point. Make sure that whatever Linux distribution that ships with your hardware runs smooth. This is why many people choose the Dell XPS13 with Ubuntu - because it works very well and in a predictably manner. It is a polished out-of-the-box experience.

    When I close my laptop lid I expect the machine to fall asleep - when I plug in an external display I certainly do not want to spend hours on getting it working properly.

    This is why working closely with a distribution is important.
    • Insight
    Learning from best examples when entering a perhaps foreign territory is a cheap shortcut that should not be overlooked. Make sure you understand why the Dell XPS13 Ubuntu is a successful product and why many Linux users chooses this system.

    I hope to see a refined product eventually!
    Good luck Razer! ​
     
    Hactar88, Lucas.de and Lilithe Lotor like this.
  3. pradhanr_no_id

    pradhanr_no_id New Member

    Forget Windows. Make in Mac like!
     
  4. Lilithe Lotor_no_id

    Lilithe Lotor_no_id New Member

    No Nvidia, ever.

    Unless they 100% open source their drivers and stop mucking around Linux users, they can't be on a Linux laptop.

    I suggest two ranges. One for developers who don't need a secondary GPU, but who want a really beefy CPU with at least 4 cores. This unit should be cool, quiet and slim, but be able to take on light video editing or machine learning or anything compute intensive if needed.

    The second line would be with a discreet GPU that can play the most recent games. That would pretty much guarantee it would be capable of any machine learning tasks as well AFAIK.

    For both units, they should be able to run a processing intensive task on the user's lap without getting hot enough to be uncomfortable. Venting should be done in a comfortable fashion. Newer CPUs seem to be pretty good for this.

    The most important thing to Linux users would be to have good driver support. If you get into this market you may in fact have to dedicate at least a small team to maintaining the driver support for your hardware. They would contribute to the driver projects of the hardware you make use of. I know this hurts your bottom line but it really would give you a lot of good faith in the Linux market.

    Those are my thoughts, anyhow. Good luck!
     
  5. Hi

    I love the first generation of Razer Blade Stealth.
    Please provide a means to update EFI in a way other than Windows.
    Since kernel 4.10 and later there is a problem caused by ACPI, probably because EFI is old.

    I am very happy that Razer turned towards minority Linux on a laptop.
     
  6. Mr.ShoNuff

    Mr.ShoNuff New Member

    I think Razer needs to differentiate themselves from their competitors who all choose Ubuntu. Go with something more bleeding edge that exemplifies their products.... and seperates them from System76 and Dell.

    1. I would go with Arch as a distro... and point mirrors to a Razer only repository; whereas updates are done without issue and custom Razer centric kernel provided. Having your own repository where in-house developers test builds and updates the mirror and repository strictly for your product line ensures things WORK 100% of the time.

    2. Razer Synapse needs to work!

    3. I recommend a custom desktop that does not eat up processes... unlike KDE and Gnome. A heavily modified Openbox, developed to look like a Apple/Windows interface, would appeal to those not familiar with linux, ensuring they have a pleasant experience.

    Personally, I would love to be on a select out of house R&D team to help develop a custom modded distro... afterwards sending my work and recommendations back to Razer for review.
     
    kaljade and labfastDarkSienna032 like this.
  7. mko8932

    mko8932 New Member

    This is partly wrong.
    The X Server is able to do GPU switching, namely via DRI PRIME. Any open source drivers support this mechanism, even the nvidia driver has partial support for PRIME. The whole mechanism works way better using wayland or mir, because these are optimized for such use cases.

    Take for example my notebook:

    The internal display is connected via hardware multiplexing to both the internal and the dGPU (gtx 1070 in this case)
    All other display outputs (2x MiniDP, 1x HDMI) are connected to the dGPU.
    For normal mobile operation one can switch off the dGPU, but as soon as you need multiple monitors you have to switch on the GTX 1070.
    Exactly this setup is currently not working, because the nvidia drivers miss the required functionality.

    @topic:

    - strive to mainline any changes you do
    - extensively test your acpi and uefi, provide legacyboot as fallback option
    - i don't think any custom desktop/os flavor would be good, I think the best
    is to provide a clean install of one of the main distros like Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu - any advanced user is able to install the distro of their choice, so I see no point in installing one of those, as long as the changes are mainlined, those users are able to get full hardware support.
     
  8. _ramsey_

    _ramsey_ Active Member

    Razer should just do this anyway :big_grin_:
     
    kaljade and labfastDarkSienna032 like this.
  9. Please use an AMD gpu, setting up NVIDIA can be annoying and with every update it's possible that stability and/or functionality are compromised; having driver in kernel is better.

    The other components should work out of the box, with support upstream (it's not cool to ship a patched distro with everything working, it must be possible to switch without losing functionality) and without the necessity for workarounds (like the sometimes necessary kernel command line parameter to add, "acpi_osi=" or "backlight_vendor"..)

    I also approve the idea of Lilithe Lotor to make two lines, of course the one with only the beefy CPU should support the Razer Core.
     
  10. Replying to a gaming laptop thread about supporting Linux. What a time to be alive. Sincere thanks to Razer for listening to your users and entertaining the idea.

    Linux on a Blade would be this traveling-consultant's dream machine. I need *nix for work and solid non-gaming battery life, so I'm generally relegated to Macbook. That pretty much kills any hope for gaming in the hotel room unless I lug around a 2nd machine.

    I would personally prefer Ubuntu or some other Debian flavor, simply for ease of use and it being so widely supported (plus it would keep my desktop / laptop experience consistent). Though unfortunately, I would still have to dual boot for a handful of games (looking at you, Riot), so no locked down bootloader / BIOS please.

    Regarding CPU/GPU, I'm not in the AMD or NVidia camp. I've used each in the past and have generally liked both.

    A machine that looks as good as the Blade, has good non-gaming battery life, good hardware, supports Linux, and performs moderately well for gaming on the road... I would buy it tomorrow. Get on it, Razer!
     
    Hactar88 likes this.
  11. Megazell_4ever

    Megazell_4ever New Member

    Yo - Linux Gamer here. I don't own any Razer products but maybe from this I will pick something up. Let's go champ!
     
  12. dani pulma_no_id

    dani pulma_no_id New Member

    Tux keyboard and AMD built laptops please
     
    cip91 likes this.
  13. domacs_no_id

    domacs_no_id New Member

    okay, i did not know that this is a limitation to X, thanks for the information
     
  14. lkcl_

    lkcl_ New Member

    hi, i've just bought an aorus x3 plus v6 - the report is here http://lkcl.net/reports/aorus_x3_plus_v6.html which is something that i do with every single laptop that i've bought, for the past 15 years (and would also do the same for a razer, to the same level of comprehensive detail).

    honestly if i had known at the time - if it was common knowledge - that the razer 14in laptop even existed then i would have been *able* to make a comparison, and would almost certainly have bought it.

    looking now at the specs the primary difference - the key limitation that makes me *really* scared to be handling a $USD 2,600 laptop - is the fact that the razer 14in has an all-aluminium case. protecting such an unbelievably-expensive screen is paramount, and you've taken care of that.

    the only thing that i have not yet been able to determine is if the razer supports 32GB of DDR4 RAM. if it did i would almost certainly have got it instead of the x3plusv6.

    so the main problem that you have is: lack of publicity and awareness, and for that you *need* to get a machine out to someone such as myself who will get it prominently into the various databases and online forums that will get people's attention. if you'd like me to a review, i'm happy to talk.

    the following things are going to be really important, hardware-wise:

    * option to NOT have a GPU (at all), using the intel graphics only, (and for the graphics to be run via primus / optirun if they are available).

    * option for 32GB RAM. this is really really important for developers who run multiple virtual OSes, 3D CAD software, 2 web browsers (with 200+ tabs), and much more.

    * really REALLY big fans and internal heat-sinks. doing kernel compiles can have a machine at 100% CPU for over half an hour at a time. repeat that process for the entire day every day and if there's any kind of thermal issues the laptop's dead within weeks or months.

    * option for dual NVMe SSDs, making ABSOLUTELY SURE that the BIOS does not prevent or prohibit changing it to ACPI mode.

    * more than the (just) two superspeed USB3s. at least two (extra) USB2 (or USB3 USB2-compatible) ports are essential for just plugging in keyboards, extra USB-based displays, USB2 hubs, card readers, memory sticks... *NOBODY* gives a stuff about speed when all they want to do is put an OS onto a USB stick or MicroSD card to boot the embedded system they're testing/developing. USB3 is *KNOWN* to be unreliable as hell especially intel's buggy crap hardware so is best avoided, particularly when using libusb.

    * option for as many extra displays as can possibly be handled. developers will use whatever screen real-estate they can possibly get away with on a desk: i've used up to FOUR simultaneous screens (using ALL of them) at one point and it was a significant increase in productivity as a result.

    * built-in sd card slot. this is surprisingly important, particularly for development of embedded systems, most of which boot from sd-card or micro-sd.

    software-wise you should confirm and double-check the following things:

    * the buggy piece-of-s*** intel xhci (USB3) driver works yes or no, particularly with libusb. signs are: arduino development won't upload, just opening the damn embedded device results in it RESETTING and re-opening.

    * vlc needs to be confirmed as functional using vaapi. CPU usage should be below 20% and should not go above 800mhz even with a 1080p video

    * optimus should run perfectly however with nvidia you should be prepared to explain to them in no uncertain terms how deeply unimpressive the quality of their proprietary drivers are. they crash regularly and require reboots. be prepared to consider using AMD radeon instead.

    * you should test and confirm that OpenCL is fully functional. this is a big plus, to have such a powerful and *portable* supercomputer, and it would open up a rather large specialist market that you have reported *and confirmed* that the razer is capable of OpenCL GPU computation.

    these are the major points that i can immediately think of. BIOS-wise:

    * for god's sake under NO circumstances lock down the BIOS. people should have the freedom to completely wipe whatever trash UEFI settings are required to run whatever trash proprietary OSes people wish to cause themselves harm by running. look up the hell that lenovo put themselves through by their arrogance in locking down the latest yoga notebooks, and then compare that to the Dell 9350 forums and support. total opposite.

    * make ABSOLUTELY sure that you have the latest *STABLE* ACPI BIOS software. i went through hell for several days with the x3plusv6 trying to work out why it wouldn't even boot on linux-4.9, turns out it was due to a buggy piece-of-s*** ACPI BIOS. i had to pretend that the machine is actually running "Windows 2009" in order to get it to work. be prepared to investigate this thoroughly

    as a general rule, you will find that the debug error reporting and general linux kernel verbose output is *CRITICAL* to you being able to develop stable and reliable hardware. additionally, the early crap hardware that tends to come out from manufacturers tends to be shown up *really* early through running linux, which is the planet's largest collaborative software project by a long long way. NOT windows and NOT macosx. if it runs on linux, chances are high that it will run well on the proprietary OSes as well. therefore you are DOING YOURSELVES A HUGE FAVOUR by choosing to support linux.

    bottom line, on that last paragraph: if there is not a version of the linux kernel that you can find which works with whatever hardware you are currently developing for GOD's sake do NOT allow it out the door, no matter how hard the management tell you "uhhh windows works fine, ship the fracking thing already". if they seek to over-rule you on that get it in writing that they disregarded this advice.

    anyway. iike i said: offer's open any time, happy to do a review of any hardware that you'd like to send / lend me. i'm currently in taiwan.

    canonical is classified, now, as a criminal cartel, after their continued and blatant copyright violations including having lost their rights many years ago to distribution of the linux kernel by way of linking it to incompatible drivers (and then shipping them without resolving the GPL violations).

    so if razer wishes to be an accessory to the criminal offense of copyright violation, then yes they should go ahead and distribute the ubuntu OS pre-installed on their laptops.

    the sensible option is thus, yes, to go with arch or with plain debian. at the moment however if you want amdgpu supported you need debian/testing as you need at least mesa 13. arch, as a "rolling" distro that is always always up-to-date, is thus actually a very good choice.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2017
    kaljade likes this.
  15. martinoj_no_id

    martinoj_no_id New Member

    That's really cool. I've stuck with Dell for my engineering laptop, but I'd switch if you guys had support for Linux, then I can game and use my laptop for my workflows.
     
  16. kodenkm

    kodenkm New Member

    When can I buy a Razer with full Linux support in AU? Looking forward to this.

    I've been looking to replace my ageing Macbook Pro for a couple of years now, its a 2009 unibody model. The retina generation were interesting but nothing has been worth the upgrade. Old hardware for premium price. Plus Mac OS is on life support while they toy with iOS. Its time to get off the sinking ship.

    The Razer Blade Stealth QHD looks nice, but only dual core and max 16 GB Ram isn't going to last long. Thats barely an upgrade from my old (upgraded) Macbook.

    The New Razer Blade is looking better with quad core CPU, but its still limited to 16 GB Ram? Is it user upgradable? Also i'd be a bit worried about the heat and battery life. I think something with just onboard Intel/AMD graphics would do for mobile and support the Razer Core for gaming.
    Maybe a laptop between the Stealth and the New Blade with onboard graphics and a 2560x1440 display would be the sweet spot. Strong CPU and enough Ram, then just offload the high end graphics to external.

    My ideal Linux laptop would be something like:
    - At least 4 cores
    - 14" or 15" 2560x1440. I don't care about touch screen, my fingers are busy in Vim.
    - 16 GB Ram min. User upgradable to 32 GB in future.
    - 512 GB M.2 PCIe SSD. User upgradeable.
    - Reasonable onboard Intel/AMD graphics with support for Razer Core external graphics.
    - Touchpad at least as good as 2009 MacBook Pro. For use during public transport when no space for mouse.
    - At least 5 hours battery would be nice. User replaceable.
    - Full hardware Linux support. Wifi, Suspend and Resume on lid close.
    - Happy/prefer to install a distro myself if there is full hardware Linux support. Wifi, Suspend and Resume on lid close.
    - Don't want Windows pre installed or any activation key. I don't use it.
    - A non Windows logo "super" key. Razer/Tux/Ubuntu logo would work.

    If available in AU with Linux, I would buy tomorrow. I've been eyeing off the System76's and Dell XPS's online, but without seeing how the keyboard and touchpad feels it is making it hard to throw my money at them.
    I've seen some Razer and Dell in the stores in AU, but they are all infected with Windows. I don't want to buy with Windows then fight with drivers to install a Linux distro and void the warranty or anything.
     
    organgtool likes this.
  17. goodluckduck

    goodluckduck New Member

    This is completely incorrect. Mac OS X is not based off Linux. Linux is actually the GNU (stands for GNU is not Unix) operating system with the Linux kernel, and the GUI (also known as a desktop environment) is separate from that too. Mac OS X uses the XNU (stands for XNU is not Unix) kernel, based on Darwin, which is closer to something like FreeBSD than it is to Linux. Mac OS X also uses a whole bunch of proprietary components, and creating a "hackintosh" goes against the Apple EULA. If Apple wanted to, they could sue Razor so hard they would never recover for doing something like that. Razor would lose. No company ever is going to officially support hackintoshing, so you're on your own in that regard.

    Please do not post about these things before Googling them. I don't say this to be mean, or to offend you, but I post these things for the sake of correct information and in the hopes that I can pass on some useful information to you.
     
    Hactar88 likes this.
  18. Eli Vance_no_id

    Eli Vance_no_id New Member

    I have hundreds of steam games. I'm in an all electronic band, and I am editing our band's videos.

    I do this all in Linux, but it's done on an old Acer Aspire that I've upgraded. I have been wanting badly for a quality laptop that has decent battery life and a good screen and GPU options.

    If I could get a Razer Blade to do this on, I'd be so relieved and happy. As it is, my battery life in particular has been so bad on the acer that I've bough replacement batteries, and eventually a chromebook so I can write and mess with social media without running down my productivity laptop's battery too often.
     
  19. tiggerslowski

    tiggerslowski New Member

    If you are wanting to appeal to developers ...

    Put missing keys back on the keyboard.
    Home, End are two keys I miss the most while coding on my blade. I usually have to use an external keyboard because keys are missing. The speakers could be moved and room for full up arrow and missing keys would be made.

    Sd card slot would be nice as well. Full size I can get adaptor to go down not up.
    I almost bought the MSI stealth because of the ports available and triple monitor out of the box.

    Drivers will be the most important part of linux. Make them available for any distro and which one you choose by default won't matter. 99% of linux users know how to install linux they enjoy.
     
  20. Al Ilseman_no_id

    Al Ilseman_no_id New Member

    In order of importance: First, a truly great trackpad driver. This has been the always been the sorest spot on any Linux (or windows for that matter) laptop. I know of one "fruit-themed" company who has perfected the trackpad experience and, as a result, produces the most sought after (didn't say best) laptops in the world. Secondly, Linux laptops often suffer from less-than-optimized battery usage leaving them hot and dying. Third, support dual booting as first class. GRUB is fine, but Windows always breaks it. I think me and all my cross platform friends would be impressed.

    Congratulations on this decision. Over the weekend, a budding programmer and friend of mine asked me why I use a macbook pro even though I advocate for all of my friends to get old thinkpads and run Linux. My response was that, although those thinkpads+linux are the best bang for your buck, I, as a professional developer, needed the best period. I also explained that most sane web developers would prefer a unix system, and as a result, we are left with relatively few options.
    Option 1) Put Linux on an old laptop
    2) Put Linux on a brand new laptop (and wait 18 months for drivers support)
    3) Buy a Dell XPS 13 (the one with Linux)
    4) Buy a macbook and use osx.

    The dell xps 13 is cute and all, but I need a computer with power and a reasonably sized screen (and a good trackpad). So, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

    I am excited to make my next notebook a Razer.
     
    Hactar88, Shoes-pc and adahad26 like this.
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